Dawn Chinagorom-Abiakalam: Hello, this is just for formalities. So my name is Dawn Chinagorom-Abiakalam, and I’m conducting an oral history interview with you for the Nigerian Stories Archive. Today is Thursday, November 2nd, 2023, and I am with — you can introduce yourself now.

Olusoji Apampa: My name is Olusoji Apampa.

DCA: Thank you. I would like to start by thanking you for joining me today. And so we’re going to begin by talking a little about your background. So questions about like your family, your education, I guess, just your personal background. So could you tell me a little more about this?

OA: Okay, education. I went to the University of Sheffield in England, and I studied Bachelor’s in engineering, in civil and structural engineering. And I also then did a Master’s in governance and finance at Liverpool John Moores University. Well, this is many years, one many years after the other. So I graduated in 1987 in my engineering degree, but graduated in 2008 in my master’s degree in finance, governance, and finance. Oh, was it 2009? 2008 or 2009? I can’t even remember.

DCA: So you mentioned that you went to, you got your bachelor’s from the University of Sheffield, which is in England. So today’s interview will be under one of our thematic areas that falls — we call it like, you know, the migration thematic area. So I wanted to know if you could talk a little more about your decision to study abroad at the time, which I guess maybe, from what I understand, maybe was not as popular as it is now. But then I’d just like you to talk a little about that, about why you decided to study in England at that time and how your experience was compared to, you know, the regular path of going to Nigerian universities.

OA: Okay. So let me, let me just reach backwards and tell you that I actually did prelim, this preliminary course to civil engineering, at the University of Ibadan. So I finished my O-levels from Federal Government College Odogbolu in 1981. And then I went to — I got a place for prelim, but it was not the civil engineering that I got, that I wanted, that I was offered in the end. I was offered Agric engineering. So it was my dad who just came one day and said, “You’re going abroad.” And that’s how it happened.

 In those days, your parents didn’t ask you your opinion about anything. They just told you what’s going to happen, and you said, “Sir, yes sir.” And you got up, you packed your bags, and you went. So that’s how I found myself in the UK. Now, when I got to the UK, the university then said, “Oh, I needed A levels.” So I then had to go — now having done one year prelim, which is like, instead of A levels, you can then go from your prelim year and enter year one with those who had done A levels. But because it wasn’t the course I wanted, or rather the course my dad wanted for me — because it wasn’t that course, he just yanked me out and said, you know, “Go and do your A levels and get into uni in the UK.” So I did two years A levels, having started in a university in Nigeria. And then in 1984, I got admitted into the University of Sheffield for the civil and structural engineering course. So that’s how I ended up in the UK.

DCA: And so did you, when you finished university, did you have ideas of whether you wanted to stay in the UK? Whether you wanted to come back to Nigeria? What decisions did you make about that, and what shaped your decisions about that at the time?

OA: My brothers were in the UK, and I thought they would have gone back to Nigeria, but they did not. And I saw how difficult it was for them to then just up and return to the country. So I decided that before my roots got too deep in the UK, when I finished, as soon as I get some experience, I decided to go back to Nigeria because I had seen my two eldest brothers unable to decide to go back. SSo I wanted to go back before my roots got too deep in the UK. And this is what I told myself. I said, “I’m still young. If I go back while I’m young, if I mess things up, and if I can’t make headway, at least I can return. But if I wait and my roots get too deep, then the stakes will be too high, and the cost of relocation will be too expensive.” But right now, being young — I was still under, I graduated at 21 — so I felt, you know, if I worked like a couple of years, I worked till I was like 25 and came back to the country. But that was by choice. I had decided that after my training, I would return to Nigeria.

DCA: And was this something that was common at the time with other people, or at least did you know any other Nigerians in the UK at the time who made similar decisions to you?

OA: No, their decisions were very different to me. They decided to stay on. Most people stayed rather than returned.

DCA: And then when you came back to Nigeria, because I know at least even thinking of my experiences as a child, there seemed to have been certain eras where they were like migration crazes. I think we’re currently living in one. And I think people talk about the 90s and early 2000s also being one of those periods where lots of Nigerians wanted to leave. So do you remember anything, or did you notice any trends at the time? And what were your thoughts then as someone who decided to come back?

OA: OOkay, now I decided to come back, and I came back to represent a company. So I came back to create a job for myself because what I’d understood about Nigeria is that don’t depend on anyone for a job. You’ve got to make a living for yourself. So when I got back, I came to represent a Swedish company in Nigeria. But I arrived, and the naira was nine naira to one dollar.

DCA: What year was this?

OA: This was 1991. The same year, it became eighteen naira to one dollar. And at that time, I was processing a Form M to import my goods, so I lost half my money. The same — within a year after, it became thirty-six to one, and then seventy-two to one, all in the space of two, three years. So the same thing that happened around this time now happened in 1991, and most people left.

DCA: And if you don’t mind me cutting you in, who — what was the political structure? So like who was leading Nigeria at the time?

OA: General Ibrahim Babangida. 

DCA: Okay. So that was during the military rule.

OA: Oh, it was pure military. It was pure military. Remember, it was in 1992? Was it 1992 that we had the elections that got annulled, June 12th?

DCA: Yes. 

OA: Yes. So I think those were ‘92 or’ 93 elections. So things were pretty bad. But you remember, I had decided I was coming home, yes. So I didn’t go back. Many people who came around the same time as me just packed their bags and went back. But I decided that I wanted to be an entrepreneur here. I wanted to make things work here. So I stayed.

DCA: And then with — so you talked about like, you know, the military regime and then the state of the economy and lots of people leaving. So it means that as an entrepreneur in Nigeria, you kind of were in the middle of watching the transition from military rule into democracy. And so did you ever notice any trend of the reverse happening, so that in the case where when we moved into democracy, did you see that people came back, or like the rates at which people were leaving reduced, or how did that work at the time?

OA: Okay. So let me give you the timeline. So I came in ‘91. By ‘94, I was fed up because I could almost not do any business without corruption, and I was not going to be part of the corruption. So I started an anti-corruption organization in ‘95. That’s how that began. And I stayed on, and I started to get involved in trying to push the government to do something. So we were all part of the pro-democracy movement. And I think it was in ‘98 that Sani Abacha died. So in ‘95, when we started my organization called Integrity, it was now Mr. Abacha, no longer Ibrahim Babangida, who was running the country. And that was at a time when Nigeria became a pariah country. No one wanted to touch anything Nigerian anywhere in the world. 

But then by 1999, when we returned to democratic rule, many Nigerians started to come back. Many Nigerians actually started to come back with the hope that things can improve now that we’re moving into a democracy away from military rule. So that was the first wave of returns, that people started to return to the country. Between 1999 and 2003, which was the first term of Olusegun Obasanjo’s government, people returned to the country. That trend also continued into his second term, where people were getting optimistic that maybe things could improve in Nigeria, and the economy started to grow again.

DCA: And then through all of this, did you feel — you personally, who had been in Nigeria the whole time — did you also feel optimistic about things improving, and did it like solidify your decision to stay?

OA: Okay, something happened. The cost of finance got unbearably high. In 1994, ‘95, ‘96, we were doing 60 percent per annum interest rates. Sixty percent per annum. And that’s what drove me out of business in the end. When I decided that all my work I was doing for the bank, I was working for the bank. So I just sold all the rest of my stock and went out and got a job.

That’s when I started working with a German software company in 1999. I took a full-time paid job because life and things started to improve. Got a steady job, got a proper income, even got paid in foreign currency, and things stabilised, yes. But those of us who were here had decided that we were going to fight it out. But that is the truth of how we survived. Many of us took paid jobs but went for international organisations.

DCA: And then also thinking about the Abacha era and how that was generally a very tough time. People always talk about moving from cooking with kerosene to cooking with sawdust. It just was a very tough time for most Nigerians financially. So also thinking about your personal history, how did you feel in your decision to stay even during that very tumultuous time in Nigeria? And then what was it like when you saw the end of that regime?

OA: Okay, let me start with the end of the regime. When we heard that he had died, there was jubilation on the streets, every street of every town in Nigeria. People were screaming, dancing, shouting, shaking hands with men in uniform, shaking hands with anybody they could find. There was jubilation on the streets when he died.

 

Now, in terms of all the time leading up to when he died, you know, once I had decided I was staying, I never looked back. I wasn’t constantly saying, “Oh, should I go back?” or “Will things be better over there?” No. I was visiting the UK, but I was under no desire to stay there. Because in 95, I started a life as an activist. You got involved in the pro-democracy thing, got involved in the anti-corruption. So I was already rolling up my sleeves and getting involved. Yes, it was that passion to try to see change happen that kept me going. So I didn’t even think of like going back to the UK to live. It didn’t even cross my mind. But I was visiting the UK quite all right, but not to go back there to live, yes, because I kept thinking that, you know, just a bit more, a bit more of a push, and we just might succeed. Things just might change.

DCA: And so I guess those feelings can resonate to the lots of people with the current state of Nigeria. And so what are generally your thoughts now about this current wave of migration? How you feel about it? Again, you know, how you still feel about your decision to stay? What you hope might happen in future? What you want Nigeria to look like as somebody who had the chance to, you know, be a Nigerian in the diaspora but chose to actually live in Nigeria.

The way many Nigerians felt about Nigeria during Abacha’s regime and during, you know, the whole military spiel could be linked to how lots of Nigerians feel about Nigeria now. And a lot of the flights that we saw then could also — we are also seeing similar patterns of that now. And so I was wondering what your thoughts are on the current immigration wave? What your thoughts are on looking into Nigeria in the future as somebody who, you know, has a lot of hope for this country, which is evident in the fact that you decided to stay.  And so I’d just like to get your thoughts on those things.

OA: Yeah, I don’t know what, what book it was, but there’s a book title that I remember that tough times don’t last. Only tough people do. That’s really the case of Nigeria through these times. And I really believe that Nigeria is going to turn a corner even sooner. And many of the people who just rapidly relocated, many of them would wonder before long whether that was the best decision for them or not. I think many will still, when they see things start to turn around in Nigeria, I still have great hopes.

Nigeria, the current administration says they would like to double our GDP, go from like 435 billion to a trillion, a trillion dollar GDP by the year 2030. I think it’s ambitious, but it’s doable. And imagine what kind of opportunities will come with that. And it’s happening at the same time as the whole of Africa is opening up into an Africa continental free trade area. So if we start to get our governance rights and the opportunities, Africa is going to explode. Nigeria is going to be that big trigger that enables the whole of Africa.

I would love to see this in my lifetime. I would love to see greater efficiency and so on. So I’ll just say, “Hang in there guys”. Yes, you have to go. It wasn’t your choice. Things were really painful at home, but you know what? Brace for it. Like fasten your seat belt. The good times are coming and keep your ears to the ground. You will notice the change. Once you notice the change, don’t wait, come back and get involved in what is going on.

DCA: Well, thank you so much. Thank you. And so with that question, that brings us to the end of this oral history interview. And I was wondering if you had anything else you would just like to share with me and like, you know, for the archive before we close out the interview.

OA: Okay. Just to say that in the end, some of yesterday’s villains, today’s heroes, and some of yesterday’s heroes are today’s villains. Isn’t it interesting how much of a hero Bola Tinubu was in the pro-democracy movement? He gave the military a hard time. Yes, he went into exile, but he was one of those who used his resources to cause trouble for the military back here in Nigeria and teamed up with underground journalists and reporters. But today he’s a bit of a villain.

Yeah, some of the military people who are the bad guys then are today looking like saints. I’ve seen the whole thing. So there’s just something I would like to draw out, which is from politics: there are no permanent friends or enemies, only shifting interests. Don’t trust the associations between people you see today. Don’t trust how the media paints them today.

Whether good or bad, you need to be driven by your values, by your principles, and it’s got to be deep and deep-seated, otherwise you could be lost. So it’s to encourage people to be authentic and to be real and to really pay attention to what is going on, because things are never what they appear to be. Thank you.

DCA: Wow. Thank you so much. Thank you again for taking out time to do this interview. We really appreciate your time and sharing your resources with us at the Nigerian Stories Archives, and once this is up, I will be sure to share that with you. So thank you very much. Thank you.

OA: Thank you so much, and apologies for the connection and the lateness and everything. Apologies

DCA: No worries. Absolutely fine. Well, I hope you have a good rest of your day.

OA: Thank you. And you. 

DCA: Bye

OA: Okay. Bye-bye.